1725 lines
76 KiB
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1725 lines
76 KiB
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48909@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 21:54:03 2004
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Message-ID: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:59:02 -0600
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From: "D. Dante Lorenso" <dante@lorenso.com>
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To: "Alex J. Avriette" <alex@posixnap.net>
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cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
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References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net>
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Status: OR
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Alex J. Avriette wrote:
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>On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
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>
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>
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>>>I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still
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>>>have no clue how I'd find the same data without using psql. In MySQL
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>>>I can run those queries from PHP, PERL...etc. I know you can find that
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>>>data in system tables in PostgreSQL, but I don't wanna muck around with
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>>>all that. I just wanna do something as simple as MySQL.
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>>>
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>>>
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>>[ Moved to hackers.]
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>>
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>>I am starting to agree that our \d* handling is just too overloaded.
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>>Look at the option list from \?:
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>>
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>>
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>>I like the idea of adding a new syntax to show that information using
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>>simple SQL command syntax, and putting it in the backend so all
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>>applications can access it. I know we have information schema, and
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>>maybe that can be used to make this simpler.
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>>
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>>
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>Bruce, while I agree with you about \d (and all its children), as well
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>as the querying we talked about on irc, I disagree with the notion of a
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>"SHOW DATABASES" query. This is one of the things that irritates me
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>about mysql is the pseudo-sql that everyone has come to accept ... It doesn't
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>make sense to create pseudo-sql, when all you're abstracting is function-macros...
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>
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Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
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remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
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reflect
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||
my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
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Using the slash commands works if you are familiar with them ... sorta
|
||
like 'ls' switches (I type 'ls -alF' without thinking about what those
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switches do because it's embedded in my head from years of repetition.
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Any other flags to 'ls', and I gotta go hit the man pages.)
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What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any
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interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash
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||
commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there...
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>If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E.
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>
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>
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Have you actually done that? OMG!
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1) Using System Catalogs ... (from psql -E)
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SELECT n.nspname as "Schema",
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c.relname as "Name",
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CASE c.relkind
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WHEN 'r' THEN 'table'
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WHEN 'v' THEN 'view'
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WHEN 'i' THEN 'index'
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WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence'
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WHEN 's' THEN 'special' END as "Type",
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u.usename as "Owner"
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FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c
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LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = c.relowner
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LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = c.relnamespace
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WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','')
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||
AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', 'pg_toast')
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AND pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid)
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ORDER BY 1,2;
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or ...
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2) (using information schema ... little better)
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SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
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= 'public';
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or ...
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3) like MySQL does it...
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SHOW TABLES;
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Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking
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||
now. hehe.
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There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions
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||
added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really
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||
sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like:
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||
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'dir' in DOS,
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'ls' in Unix
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'SHOW' in MySQL
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??? in PostgreSQL ?
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Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
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||
I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
|
||
even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
|
||
right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
|
||
being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies.
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||
|
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Dante
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48908@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 21:50:03 2004
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
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I think moving the \d and simliar features in psql
|
||
to SQL is a good idea. That will make the features
|
||
available in any client library. As for the syntax,
|
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maybe a investigation is needed.
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48835=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Tue Jan 6 03:08:59 2004
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From: Tommi Maekitalo <t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de>
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Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:01:10 +0100
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References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net>
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Am Sonntag, 4. Januar 2004 20:13 schrieb Alex J. Avriette:
|
||
> On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
||
> > > I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still
|
||
...
|
||
>
|
||
> /functions
|
||
> /databases
|
||
>
|
||
...
|
||
|
||
Long options sounds really good. It is like GNU-tools. A single - for single
|
||
character options and a double -- for long options.
|
||
|
||
Ah - a single \ for short options in postgresql and a double \\ for long? What
|
||
do you think?
|
||
|
||
|
||
--
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||
Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
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http://www.epgmbh.de
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48912@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 22:37:54 2004
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
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From: Rod Taylor <pg@rbt.ca>
|
||
To: "D. Dante Lorenso" <dante@lorenso.com>
|
||
cc: "Alex J. Avriette" <alex@posixnap.net>,
|
||
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
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PostgreSQL Development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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In-Reply-To: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
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References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com>
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<200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us>
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<20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com>
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|
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|
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Status: OR
|
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|
||
> Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
|
||
> remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
|
||
> reflect
|
||
> my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
|
||
|
||
Can you remember how to get a list of indexes on a particular table? How
|
||
about a specific indexes build? I ask, because I constantly forgot both
|
||
of those (don't like FROM).
|
||
|
||
> 2) (using information schema ... little better)
|
||
>
|
||
> SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
|
||
> = 'public';
|
||
>
|
||
> or ...
|
||
>
|
||
> 3) like MySQL does it...
|
||
>
|
||
> SHOW TABLES;
|
||
>
|
||
> Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking
|
||
> now. hehe.
|
||
|
||
I actually prefer #2 myself. It works on a number of databases aside
|
||
from just PostgreSQL. So, as a user who worked in a mixed environment it
|
||
was easier to remember.
|
||
|
||
But I get your point.
|
||
|
||
> Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
|
||
> I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
|
||
> even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
|
||
> right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
|
||
|
||
I agree with the simple SHOW TABLES command but disagree with:
|
||
|
||
SHOW [FULL] COLUMNS FROM tbl_name [FROM db_name] [LIKE wild]
|
||
|
||
I much prefer:
|
||
|
||
SELECT * FROM COLUMNS WHERE table LIKE '%tab%' AND database = 'billing';
|
||
|
||
It's not much longer, certainly more natural to those that know SQL, and
|
||
infinitely more useful since you can create result sets that the
|
||
programmer of SHOW hadn't considered. A perfect example is the addition
|
||
of the FULL clause in SHOW. The above select does not need additional
|
||
keywords for different formatting options as it can simply use "natural"
|
||
SQL styling.
|
||
|
||
|
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|
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From tswan@idigx.com Fri Jan 9 02:07:40 2004
|
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|
||
Message-ID: <3FFE532C.2090503@idigx.com>
|
||
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:07:24 -0600
|
||
From: Thomas Swan <tswan@idigx.com>
|
||
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|
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
References: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us>
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|
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autolearn=ham version=2.61
|
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
||
|
||
>Alex J. Avriette wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>>On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote:
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>>Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
|
||
>>>remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
|
||
>>>reflect
|
||
>>>my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell.
|
||
>>You can't expect all applications to work correctly. I'd like to second
|
||
>>Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d*
|
||
>>commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software
|
||
>>(even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some
|
||
>>adjustment.
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>
|
||
>OK, I will drop the idea. Thanks.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
Bruce,
|
||
|
||
The idea is not without merit. What you are looking at is a way to get
|
||
this information as a query without having to know all the intricasies
|
||
of all the pg_* internals or duplicating complex queries. "psql -E"
|
||
shows you just how tricky this is. Secondly, if this information
|
||
changes in a release, then the end user has to rewrite all of the
|
||
queries to work. Being able to issue a query to the dbms and get the
|
||
information as a normal SQL result makes sense and is definately convenient.
|
||
|
||
The \d* commands work from psql but not from anywhere else. Try
|
||
getting the information from a PHP script by sending a "\dS" query. It
|
||
doesn't work. If the same queries were stored in the backend and
|
||
referenced by psql and also could be referenced by other scripts, this
|
||
would be a good thing and keep the work centralized. If the queries
|
||
were in the backend, the psql users could keep the \dS command but it
|
||
would call an internal function or execute a queried stored in the
|
||
system tables.
|
||
|
||
|
||
One option is to get the information via a function like
|
||
|
||
SELECT * FROM pg_info('tables');
|
||
SELECT * FROM pg_info('indexes');
|
||
|
||
|
||
"psql -E" would show the same query being executed for "\dt"
|
||
|
||
Another option if no one wanted a language construct, perhaps one option
|
||
would be to store the queries themselves in a table like pg_queries.
|
||
This also has the advantage of exposing the queries used so that they
|
||
can used as examples for other purposes.
|
||
|
||
+------------+------------------------------------------+
|
||
|pg_info_type|pg_query |
|
||
+------------+------------------------------------------+
|
||
|tables |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname |
|
||
| |as "Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN |
|
||
| |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN|
|
||
| |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' |
|
||
| |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as|
|
||
| |"Owner" FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c LEFT |
|
||
| |JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = |
|
||
| |c.relowner LEFT JOIN |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = |
|
||
| |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','')|
|
||
| |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', |
|
||
| |'pg_toast') AND |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) |
|
||
| |ORDER BY 1,2; |
|
||
+------------+------------------------------------------+
|
||
|indexes |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname as|
|
||
| |"Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN |
|
||
| |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN|
|
||
| |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' |
|
||
| |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as|
|
||
| |"Owner", c2.relname as "Table" FROM |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_class c JOIN |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_index i ON i.indexrelid = |
|
||
| |c.oid JOIN pg_catalog.pg_class c2 ON |
|
||
| |i.indrelid = c2.oid LEFT JOIN |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = |
|
||
| |c.relowner LEFT JOIN |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = |
|
||
| |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('i','')|
|
||
| |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', |
|
||
| |'pg_toast') AND |
|
||
| |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) |
|
||
| |ORDER BY 1,2; |
|
||
+------------+------------------------------------------+
|
||
|
||
|
||
Again, this is just food for thought. Perhaps it is a way to satisfy
|
||
both arguments.
|
||
|
||
Thomas
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48922@postgresql.org Fri Jan 9 05:23:03 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48922@postgresql.org>
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From: Tommi Maekitalo <t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de>
|
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Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:19:45 +0100
|
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
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|
||
Hi,
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> 2) (using information schema ... little better)
|
||
>
|
||
> SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema
|
||
> = 'public';
|
||
>
|
||
> or ...
|
||
>
|
||
...
|
||
|
||
I just looked at the information_schema. It is a very nice feature, but
|
||
difficult to use in psql.
|
||
|
||
I just wanted to see, what I can find here. After trying and rtfm I ended in
|
||
'\d information_schema.*'. I get a very large page wich is quite unreadable.
|
||
'\d' is normally very usable.
|
||
|
||
It would be better not to show the view-definition.
|
||
|
||
What if \d on views just show the column, type and attribute. \d+ would show
|
||
the full view-definition.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Tommi
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
|
||
http://www.epgmbh.de
|
||
|
||
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48946@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 07:42:08 2004
|
||
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:36:06 -0800
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From: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>
|
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
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autolearn=ham version=2.61
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Alex J. Avriette wrote:
|
||
> On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
> > Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily
|
||
> > remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC <table>, because they
|
||
> > reflect
|
||
> > my intensions directly and 'make sense'.
|
||
>
|
||
> What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell.
|
||
|
||
And yet, bash has !$ and job control just like csh, even though they're
|
||
not standard Bourne-shell features.
|
||
|
||
It's not a bad thing to adopt good ideas from other projects.
|
||
|
||
> You can't expect all applications to work correctly.
|
||
|
||
You can't expect this anyway, at least when dealing with cross-database
|
||
applications. The intersection of the SQL feature sets across all the
|
||
major database engines is pretty limited -- small enough that you'll
|
||
almost certainly end up using something database-specific when attempting
|
||
to do anything truly nontrivial.
|
||
|
||
> I'd like to second
|
||
> Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d*
|
||
> commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software
|
||
> (even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some
|
||
> adjustment.
|
||
|
||
This is true, but it's no argument against implementing "show
|
||
databases", "show tables", and "describe".
|
||
|
||
Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes sense
|
||
to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy to
|
||
remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very least)
|
||
would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets right. As
|
||
it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used for something
|
||
else. So we might instead use something else (e.g. "VIEW") instead.
|
||
|
||
Either way, a single command that takes as its argument the type of entity
|
||
you want to see would be extremely useful, and much easier to remember
|
||
than what we currently have -- because the names of the entities that
|
||
are available are already well-defined and are likely known to the user
|
||
already.
|
||
|
||
> > What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any
|
||
> > interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash
|
||
> > commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there...
|
||
> >
|
||
> > >If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E.
|
||
> > >
|
||
> > >
|
||
> > Have you actually done that? OMG!
|
||
>
|
||
> Yes, I do it frequently. You may notice a recent post of mine used
|
||
> exactly that output.
|
||
|
||
Now do it from within psql.
|
||
|
||
It's \l, as it turns out. This violates the principle of least surprise
|
||
because psql generally uses \d* to show entities.
|
||
|
||
> > 3) like MySQL does it...
|
||
> >
|
||
> > SHOW TABLES;
|
||
>
|
||
> Should postgres also support the '#' comment? What other non-sql
|
||
> sqlisms should we support?
|
||
|
||
PG already has a number of PG-specific features. Adding more,
|
||
*especially* if they happen to be compatible with other databases, isn't
|
||
going to hurt much.
|
||
|
||
No, the thing to worry about here is whether or not these commands
|
||
("SHOW", for instance) will appear in the SQL spec and will have a
|
||
completely different meaning from the meaning in PG. Also of concern is
|
||
that "SHOW" is already reserved and used for something else. We'd have
|
||
to use something other than "SHOW" for the purpose being discussed.
|
||
|
||
> > There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions
|
||
> > added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really
|
||
>
|
||
> I would argue that these are not "sql extensions" at all. If you like, I
|
||
> can go over the source to verify this myself, but my guess is that MySQL
|
||
> is doing exactly what postgres is doing, and evaluating this as a macro.
|
||
|
||
No, they are built into MySQL's backend parser. You can easily verify
|
||
this by executing these commands from within Perl or Python. They
|
||
return a table just like any other SQL command that returns data.
|
||
|
||
> Furthermore, databases are not designed for "newbies" to jump right in
|
||
> with both feet. They are designed to be robust and stable.
|
||
|
||
Now this is ludicrous. Yes, they're designed to be robust and stable,
|
||
but that has absolutely nothing to do with how easy they are to use.
|
||
|
||
> Additionally,
|
||
> some SQL compliance is nice. After that, you work on features.
|
||
|
||
If we were talking about something that went against the SQL standard
|
||
then I would agree with you. But we're talking about something that,
|
||
as far as I know, isn't in the SQL standard at all. Implementing it
|
||
won't make us noncompliant with the SQL standard any more than the
|
||
implementation of CREATE INDEX has.
|
||
|
||
> Changing the interface so that you or others don't have to read the
|
||
> documentation smacks of laziness.
|
||
|
||
Really? One could make the same argument for standards of any kind,
|
||
yes? :-)
|
||
|
||
> Somebody like Bruce, Peter, or Tom (or indeed somebody else) is going
|
||
> to waste yet more time making things like this available to somebody
|
||
> who probably won't read any of the other documentation either, and will
|
||
> wind up on irc pestering somebody like myself, Dave, or Neil. Why is
|
||
> this progress?
|
||
|
||
It's progress because it will keep those people from pestering someone
|
||
in the know about how to show the available databases, or how to
|
||
describe a table.
|
||
|
||
> > sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like:
|
||
> >
|
||
> > 'dir' in DOS,
|
||
> > 'ls' in Unix
|
||
> > 'SHOW' in MySQL
|
||
> > ??? in PostgreSQL ?
|
||
>
|
||
> We've been over this. It's \d*.
|
||
|
||
For listing databases it's \l. Not exactly consistent with the rest of
|
||
the related psql commands.
|
||
|
||
> > Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer,
|
||
> > I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch
|
||
> > even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it
|
||
> > right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without
|
||
> > being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies.
|
||
>
|
||
> What really frightens me here is that I know of several applications (shudder,
|
||
> "LAMP" applications) which use the output of "show tables" or other of your
|
||
> "extensions." The problem with this is precisely that it /isn't/ sql, and it
|
||
> can't be supported as a static command.
|
||
|
||
Of course not. But applications which rely on information such as that
|
||
provided by "show tables" will typically not be possible to write while
|
||
adhering to the feature intersection of all major databases anyway.
|
||
|
||
> It is intended to be there for people
|
||
> to use interactively.
|
||
|
||
Nonsense. It's there to be used. Whether it's used interactively or
|
||
not is irrelevant. The command provides useful information. But see
|
||
below.
|
||
|
||
> Making "pseudo sql" will encourage more developers to
|
||
> (and I'd apologize for this if it weren't true) code in Postgres the same
|
||
> lazy way they code in MySQL.
|
||
|
||
This is a strawman argument, although I understand your concern here.
|
||
To be honest, for application development I'd much rather see people
|
||
use information_schema, but that's only because information_schema is
|
||
in the SQL standard and as such should be the preferred way to retrieve
|
||
the information that the "SHOW" commands in MySQL return. That said,
|
||
the inclusion of information_schema is a very recent development on the
|
||
PostgreSQL side of things, and doesn't even exist on some other major
|
||
databases such as MSSQL.
|
||
|
||
Of course, a PG equivalent to MySQL's "show" would be an even more
|
||
recent development... :-)
|
||
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
|
||
joining column's datatypes do not match
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48947@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 08:12:39 2004
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48947@postgresql.org>
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id B98A65623C; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:24 +0100 (CET)
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
To: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
|
||
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:24 +0100
|
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|
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|
||
Kevin Brown wrote:
|
||
> Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes
|
||
> sense to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy
|
||
> to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very
|
||
> least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets
|
||
> right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used
|
||
> for something else. So we might instead use something else (e.g.
|
||
> "VIEW") instead.
|
||
|
||
What is wrong with
|
||
|
||
SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
|
||
|
||
? If it's too much to type, put information_schema in the path. This
|
||
syntax has the advantage that you can use qualifications and other SQL
|
||
features. And you can build customized views on top of it. Does SHOW
|
||
TABLES or whatever it might be called support that?
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
|
||
joining column's datatypes do not match
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48948@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 11:30:24 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48948@postgresql.org>
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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:27:21 +0100 (CET)
|
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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dennis_Bj=F6rklund?= <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
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To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
|
||
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
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In-Reply-To: <200401101407.24766.peter_e@gmx.net>
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On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
|
||
|
||
> > to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very
|
||
> > least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets
|
||
> > right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used
|
||
> > for something else.
|
||
>
|
||
> What is wrong with
|
||
>
|
||
> SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
|
||
|
||
The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column
|
||
instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you don't
|
||
get from the above.
|
||
|
||
I would rather have long commands so one can write
|
||
|
||
\describe_table foo
|
||
|
||
and have the tab completion work for these of course (only for the long
|
||
commands, the \dt and such does not belong in completion).
|
||
|
||
The information schema is nice, but it's not what I want to use at the
|
||
prompt to view the content of the database.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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||
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
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||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48950@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 13:30:54 2004
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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Status: OR
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|
||
|
||
Dennis Bj<42>rklund <db@zigo.dhs.org> writes:
|
||
|
||
> I would rather have long commands so one can write
|
||
>
|
||
> \describe_table foo
|
||
|
||
I would think it would be better to keep everything under a single command and
|
||
have a 1-1 correspondence to \d. Ie, just add a long form syntax following the
|
||
existing \d. \d would become just an obvious set of abbreviations.
|
||
|
||
So for example:
|
||
|
||
\describe table foo => \dt foo
|
||
\describe index foo => \di foo
|
||
\describe aggregate foo => \da foo
|
||
\describe operator foo => \do foo
|
||
|
||
...
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
greg
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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||
|
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48952@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 14:17:26 2004
|
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Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500 (EST)
|
||
To: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
In-Reply-To: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
|
||
message dated "10 Jan 2004 13:28:08 -0500"
|
||
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500
|
||
Message-ID: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Status: OR
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|
||
Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu> writes:
|
||
> So for example:
|
||
|
||
> \describe table foo => \dt foo
|
||
> \describe index foo => \di foo
|
||
> \describe aggregate foo => \da foo
|
||
> \describe operator foo => \do foo
|
||
|
||
It doesn't seem to me that this buys much except verboseness, though.
|
||
|
||
ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
|
||
|
||
1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
|
||
2. Some people aren't using psql.
|
||
3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
|
||
needed commands change.
|
||
|
||
I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
|
||
areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
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||
joining column's datatypes do not match
|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48954@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 19:19:30 2004
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:16:58 +0000 (UTC)
|
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From: Jon Jensen <jon@endpoint.com>
|
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|
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
In-Reply-To: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401110014230.1302@louche.swelter.net>
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<878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
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|
||
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
|
||
> ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
|
||
>
|
||
> 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
|
||
> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
|
||
> 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
|
||
> needed commands change.
|
||
>
|
||
> I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
|
||
> areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
|
||
|
||
I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything
|
||
is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still
|
||
faster to type \? <CR> then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And
|
||
"show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm
|
||
used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it.
|
||
|
||
Jon
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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||
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48955@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:09:33 2004
|
||
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id EA9C35623C; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100 (CET)
|
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
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|
||
Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
|
||
|
||
I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either
|
||
using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe"
|
||
functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it
|
||
doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are.
|
||
|
||
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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||
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
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||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48956@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:19:59 2004
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48956@postgresql.org>
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id 7D86F5623C; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:17 +0100 (CET)
|
||
From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
To: Dennis =?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rklund?= <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:17 +0100
|
||
User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1
|
||
cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
|
||
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org>
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Dennis Bj<42>rklund wrote:
|
||
> > What is wrong with
|
||
> >
|
||
> > SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables;
|
||
>
|
||
> The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column
|
||
> instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you
|
||
> don't get from the above.
|
||
|
||
This is an interesting point to remember for those that are advocating
|
||
pushing psql's queries into the backend. psql's queries are optimized
|
||
for monospaced text screens of limited size. Unless someone else is
|
||
writing a command-line client, there would be little reuse effect,
|
||
because any given application will have different display requirements.
|
||
|
||
(Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that
|
||
much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes
|
||
there is more than one table, or the information is in the table
|
||
footers. It'd be quite complicated to make the backend produce those
|
||
kinds of displays.)
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48957@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 04:34:27 2004
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M48957@postgresql.org>
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|
||
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:23 +0100 (CET)
|
||
From: Dennis Bjorklund <db@zigo.dhs.org>
|
||
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
cc: Kevin Brown <kevin@sysexperts.com>,
|
||
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200401110213.17581.peter_e@gmx.net>
|
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Status: OR
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|
||
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that
|
||
> much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes
|
||
> there is more than one table, or the information is in the table
|
||
> footers.
|
||
|
||
Yes, pushing the \xx commands into the server makes no sense to me at all.
|
||
|
||
The commands in psql are very specific for psql. I don't see why you ever
|
||
want to do SHOW TABLES except at the command line in psql. If your
|
||
application wants to find all tables in the database, then we have the
|
||
standard sql way, which is the information schema.
|
||
|
||
The argument that "show tables" is easier to remember then \dt might be
|
||
true, but to me that just means that we should make psql better by adding
|
||
\describe_table and such, not to push psql code into the server.
|
||
|
||
Making a couple of views that are pg specific to make it easier to get
|
||
information out could be good however. The information schema does not
|
||
always contain all information one might want. Making specialised SQL
|
||
commands for it I'm not in favor of at all.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
/Dennis Bj<42>rklund
|
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To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
cc: Greg Stark <gsstark@mit.edu>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
In-Reply-To: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net>
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
message dated "Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100"
|
||
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:18:05 -0500
|
||
Message-ID: <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
|
||
> Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
>> 2. Some people aren't using psql.
|
||
|
||
> I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either
|
||
> using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe"
|
||
> functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it
|
||
> doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are.
|
||
|
||
But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend
|
||
version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom program
|
||
implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they all have
|
||
to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if people start to
|
||
rely on information_schema for those things, life will get better,
|
||
but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself certainly hasn't
|
||
moved in that direction.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48981@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 20:52:09 2004
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Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:12 -0500
|
||
From: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
|
||
To: Jon Jensen <jon@endpoint.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:08 -0500
|
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401101720500.13405-100000@zigo.dhs.org> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401110014230.1302@louche.swelter.net>
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
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|
||
On Saturday 10 January 2004 19:16, Jon Jensen wrote:
|
||
> On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> > ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends:
|
||
> >
|
||
> > 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands.
|
||
> > 2. Some people aren't using psql.
|
||
> > 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the
|
||
> > needed commands change.
|
||
> >
|
||
> > I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem
|
||
> > areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three.
|
||
>
|
||
> I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything
|
||
> is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still
|
||
> faster to type \? <CR> then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And
|
||
> "show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm
|
||
> used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it.
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
I'd second this point; I've certainly stumbled over the "show" syntax when
|
||
trying to get anything other than tables in mysql.
|
||
|
||
Robert Treat
|
||
--
|
||
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded
|
||
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version=2.61
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Status: OR
|
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|
||
Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend
|
||
> version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom
|
||
> program implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they
|
||
> all have to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if
|
||
> people start to rely on information_schema for those things, life
|
||
> will get better, but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself
|
||
> certainly hasn't moved in that direction.
|
||
|
||
IIRC, the two killers in psql compatibility have been outer joins and
|
||
schemas. I don't see how we could have avoided that, except with
|
||
highly specialized and static (parameter-less) commands. There have
|
||
been additional minor issues, but I suppose we could have avoided those
|
||
if we had cared to do so at all.
|
||
|
||
Several people have in the past proposed to keep psql backward
|
||
compatible, even if only by means of
|
||
|
||
if (version =x) {
|
||
...
|
||
}
|
||
else if (version = y) {
|
||
...
|
||
}
|
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|
||
(which would be fine by me), but apparently no one has felt pressed
|
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enough yet.
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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